I was born on October 31st 1985 A.D.
I'm a Caucasian male who lives in Racine Wisconsin.
I'm a Christian, I take the Bible literally, I'm a 6 Day Young Earth Creationist. I don't Identify myself with any Denomination, the Churches I sometimes go to are Independent Baptist, but I'm a Member of none, I was raised Catholic but I'm not anymore. I believe Salvation is by Faith Alone, and I don't believe you can lose your Salvation. I'm definitely not a Calvinist or an Arminian.
I do not believe Homosexuality is a Sin, I've studied all the Bible verses cited as claiming that, and their only condemning certain Pagan practices. Even Pre-Marital sex all together I do not believe is as condemned as people assume.
My Political views are also complicated to explain, I voted for Ron Paul and Chuck Baldwin in 2008. I'm liberation on about 95% of Issues, I despise both major Parties, I consider both the Libertarian and Constitution parties, but their flawed too.
I love reading books, including Comic Books. I like Video Games but mostly Nintendo. I consider The Dark Knight the greatest movie ever made.
I desire to be a writer. I have many kinds stories I want to write. From Young Adult Romance, to stories inspired by French Pulp Fiction and Comic Books and Anime, to Historical Epics, to Steam Punk SciFi/Fantasy. And plenty that merge some or all of those.
My beliefs have an effect on my writing. But I try very hard not come off a preachy, and I do want people who disagree with me to still find the stories entertaining and the characters likeable (or Love to Hate-able for the Villains).
Mt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Lu 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
QUOTE Mt 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Lu 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am He; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
QUOTE Mt 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted,
Lu 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you,
QUOTE Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Lu 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains
QUOTE Lu 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
QUOTE And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, saying. “If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.”
QUOTE And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?
QUOTE Mr 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am He; and shall deceive many. And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
QUOTE Mr 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
please do not twist my words. hanna is drinking BECAUSE OF HER PROBLEMS. if hanna was drinking in moderation, i would not be so concerned. maya was not addicted to weed in fact it’s impossible to be physically addicted to it and it’s one of the most un harmful drugs and dont tell me it’s a gateway drug cause if you’re dumb enough to do cocaine you are gonna do it no matter what you smoke first. cigarettes are more harmful to your health as is drinking if it is not done in moderation, and right now hanna has no moderation and that is dangerous.
QUOTE But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
QUOTERevelation 11:10 “And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. “
On The Rapture I’ve mostly settled into a Mid-Trib position. But your typical Mid-Trib believer says that the “Great Tribulation” refers only to the second half of the 70th Week (and so from their POV their Pre-Trib) and is basically synonymous with The Wrath/Day of The Lord. I’m different, I view the term “Great Tribulation” as characteristic of the entire 70th Week.
The Pre-Wrath position also believes both “Great Tribulation” and “Wrath” are only the last 3 and half years. But they divide it up, with the Rapture being were the split is.
Chris White, who’s Pre-Wrath, makes an amusing mistake, he says the term “Great Tribulation” occurs only twice in The Bible, in Matthew 24, and Revelation 7. There is in fact another usage of the term I shall discus.
The word “Tribulation” alone occurs a lot, and is a term that most serious students of The Bible realize is synonymous with persecution, and is not at all limited only to a specific End Times time period. It is the term “Great Tribulation” that we tend to insist on making more specific, to some it refers to the entire 70th week, to some only the first half. And as I pointed out above some view it variantly as the second half or part of it. Some Pre-Tribbers would also say the entire 70th week is Tribulation but only the second half the “Great Tribulation”.
The usage of the term that gets overlooked is in Revelation 2:22, where it’s part of the message to the Church at Thyatira. “Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.”
Typically people insist this should still be viewed as strictly end times because of the typological applications that clearly make Thyatira characteristic of The Catholic Church, and perhaps also other Paganized “Christian” religions, like the Orhtodox, or Anglicans, or Mormons, ect. And I agree with those typological views, but it still must also apply to the original immediate context, or else the type tells us nothing. I think this was first fulfilled by the Christian persecutions that broke out in Asia Minor early in the reign of Hadrian.
And even looking at the type, it doesn’t fit the way many Protestants want to see the Catholic Church’s role in the Tribulation period. If it applies to the Vatican’s End Times role then they will be victims of The Beast’s persecution as much as any other Christians. Of course Revelation 17 does say he Beast will turn on Mystery Babylon. I don’t view Mystery Babylon as the Catholic Church alone however, but as all Pagan religion.
One could say this has happened to the Catholic Church via Henry VIII’s persecutions, or the massive Christian Persecution during the French Revolution, which was mostly against Catholics because the Protestant Reformation never much ground in France. But those Atheists and Deists certainly hated other Christian sects just as much.
The point is, when we take this verse seriously the term “Great Tribulation” is no longer just one time period.
Matthew 24:21 is the main basis for insisting that the term applies specifically to the second half “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." the timing of this verse being what’s happening in the wake of the Abomination of Desolation.
First off, I feel the wording can indeed work as saying we were already in Great Tribulation, but now it’s escalating to it’s most severe phase. Indeed Jesus had clearly already described a massive worldwide persecution before he reached the Abomination of Desolation. The typical Pre-Wrath position seems to be that he describes the persecution then looks back to describe how it began. But it’s funny because there are other places were their main objection to other views is their not interpreting the Olivte chronologically. I make no claim that the Olivte Discourse is strictly chronological, but as I’ve explained elsewhere Revelation is the key to how to unlock the Chronology of other Bible passages that summarize the End Times.
Revelation 7:14 “And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
The Pre-Wrath position is that Matthew 24 tells us when “Great Tribulation” is, so we must be in the second half of the 70th week already here. To me it’s absurd to think Revelation has reached the midway point of the 70th week any sooner then the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11. I’ve explained why elsewhere.
"Great Tribulation" is a term describing severe persecution. I view there as being two great persecutions coming.
1. A persecution of The Church during the first half, which will have a corresponding “Falling away” Paul describes in 2 Thessalonians 2, and clearly placed before the unveiling of the Man of Sin.
2. A massive attempted Genocide of Israel, that begins as soon as the Abomination of Desolation happens which is why Jesus warned Israel to flee immediately (see my Olivite Discourse study). Revelation 12 likewise describes God as having a hiding place for her in the wilderness. Isaiah 63 hints at that place being in Edom. Petra is a popular theory.
Now the persecution of Israel we know for certain has The Beast and The False Prophet (The Antichrist) as the force behind it. The Church’s persecution earlier may or may not be also, it isn’t clear. The original Antichrist heresy may be what we’re being persecuted for not accepting or maybe not. I’ve explained in other threads why I feel there may be decoy Antichrists during the first half of the 70th week.
But that’s besides the point, the point is there will be a major worldwide persecution of Christians BEFORE the Abomination of Desolation happens. The Pre-Wrath people think their the ones most prepared for the coming persecution, but the ones I’ve studied at least (like Chris White) are clear that it doesn’t happen till after the unveiling of the Man of Sin, and that the first half of the 70th week will be a seemingly good time for all Judeo-Christians. So to me their unprepared just as much as people thinking we’ll be taken out first, because they think they’ll be safe so long the Abomination of Desolation hasn’t happened yet.
So that’s why to me “Great Tribulation” characterizes the entire 70th week. But there is no single individual “The Great Tribulation”, that three word phrase is never in The Bible.
Now that I’ve argued against both Pre-Trib and Post-Trib, I want to get into things that are disputed within the Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath camp.
One part is debating when in the sequence of Judgments (Seals, Trumpets, Bowls) we reach the midway point.
I know Revelation isn’t purely chronological, certain single statements span an entire half of the 70th week. But there is a basic chronology to it that clearly places the mid way point between the Trumpets and Bowls. This is a problem for some people though, who have tried to argue that we’re at the halfway point at the Sixth Seal, or that we’re already at the end of the 70th week when the 7th Trumpet sounds, but those argument always seem forced.
In Revelation 8 there is no gap between the Seals and the Trumpets, the Trumpets and the Censer both come from the 7th Seal. But between the 7th Trumpet and the Bowls is the entire narrative of Revelation 12, 13 and 14.
I think it’s telling that in Revelation 11 the 7th Trumpet is preceded by 2 reference to 3 and a half years that clearly correlate to the first half of the 70th week (i know some see those as the second half already, but they describe conditions that can only apply pre Abomination of Desolation) and then in 12 and 13 is followed by 3 references to a 3 and a half years period that are clearly the second half.
Now for the matter of at what point are we already under “God’s Wrath”. Many both Pre-Tribbers, and certain Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath supporters view us as already in Wrath at the Sixth Seal, and refer to the Trumpets as God’s Wrath. For the latter this is why they need to force the mid-way point sooner, for the former they consider it reason to view Tribulation and Wrath as indistinguishable and rending the Pre-Wrath distinction a mute point.
The account of the Sixth Seal is the only time the word Wrath occurs before the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet. And the problem is you can’t build Doctrine on dialogue uttered by fallible human beings who aren’t anointed Prophets of God.
That hermeneutic is of course lost on many people, there are teachers out there building doctrine on the things Job’s idiot friends said, or justifying referring to Joseph as Yeshua’s father because Mary did in Luke 2 when Yeshua was 12. The Bible is an infallible Book, but it still records humans saying very wrong things.
So I won’t even get into any textual debate about if “is come” should be “is coming” or whatever else. The Sixth Seal happens to be one of the most recognizable passages of Revelation, my earliest memory of hearing Revelation quoted back when I was a kid was in the movie Ghost Busters when Ray recounts the Sixth Seal (He got the chapter it’s in wrong), Dan has a good voice for quoting Scripture. For people who don’t study Eschatology it’s probably a more unmistakable event then even the Abomination of Desolation.
So when it happens the world will think the Lamb’s Wrath has come already, but a further reading of Revelation shows that that is nothing compared to the Wrath. And I don’t believe it’s describing an average local earthquake, but a global one. But it’s interesting that it’s been recording in some local earthquakes where there were also volcanic eruptions, the Sun wen black and the Moon looked blood red as if it was a Lunar Eclipse. So because of that I consider the Blood Moon theory probably a distraction, but I will still be paying attention to them.
The Sixth Seal is indeed an unmistakeable parallel to the Cosmic Signs refereed to in Joel and Matthew 24 and elsewhere. But it’s only the beginning of those Signs, they continue through the 7th Seal and the Trumpets. Only the Bowls in Revelation 15&16 are actually defined as being God’s Wrath poured out on the world. Trumpets are warnings and declarations Biblically, they precede Judgment.
The multitude of Saints seen in Heaven in Revelation 7 are frequently interpreted to be already Resurrected/Raptured, I think that argument is weak. They are in a different state then they where after the Fifth Seal was opened, but that could mean any number of things. Perry Stone specifically says the Bema Judgment must have already happened, many would need to have Crown to absolutely prove that point. Basically it’s having their Robes people think prove being already Resurrected, the washed Robes represent that their Sins are removed, that is all.
A debate exists over whether or not the “Last Trump” that signals the Rapture in Thessalonians, and Corinthians and Matthew 24 is the 7th Trumpet of Revelation 11 or the Last Trumpet sounded on the Feast of Trumpets.
Chris White argues it’s neither and that we should look at the Silver Trumpets of Numbers 10. It is true that the Biblical Hebrew text does not explicitly link Trumpets to the First of Tishri feast in Levitcus 23:24, that’s an assumption we make based on Trumpets being added in translation, and extra Biblical traditions about that day. Chris White however seems to assume the Trumpets affiliated with the First of Tishri are the Ram’s Horns. But a book I have on Hebrew customs (by Ethan Allen) says it was the Silver Trumpets sounded on that day.
Numbers 10:10 does say the Silver Trumpets are to be sounded “Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months”. Now “solemn days” in the Hebrew texts refers to the “appointed times’ or High Holy Days, meaning all of them outlined in Leviticus 23. And the beginning of each month would also include the First of Tishri.
The single word translated “blowing of trumpets” in Leviticus 23:24 is T@ruw`ah (ter-oo-aw’); Noun Feminine, Strong #: 8643. Is use din Numbers 10:5&6 where it is translated “Alarm”.
"When ye blow an alarm, then the camps that lie on the east parts shall go forward.
When ye blow an alarm the second time, then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys.”
In verse 7 it’s a different word translated alarm, but one that is probably the root of the final syllable of Taruwah.
At any rate I’d agree we can’t build solid doctrine on any extra Biblical assumptions about Rosh Hoshana. But this one may have more of a Biblical basis then he realized. The First of Tishri is the one day there is double the reason to sound those Trumpets. And the only thing we are told about it in Leviticus is a key word also used in Numbers 10 about blowing Trumpets.
I don’t think we should distinguish between the Rams Horns and Silver Trumpets in terms of how they may symbolically point to the Heavenly Trumpets, whether it’s the verses indisputably about The Rapture or the Seven Trumpets in Revelation. Earthly Trumpets needed to be made from separate materials for Earthly reasons, but the Heavenly Trumpets are probably not really made from any Earthly substance at all. Silver is Levitcully a symbol of Redemption, and Ram’s Horns are taken from Sacrificial offerings, so symbolically both point to Jesus as out Sin Offering, who’s voice is sometimes described as “like a Trumpet”.
Hosea 5:8 Poetically uses both words for Trumpet as if their synonyms. But the KJV renders one of them Cornet to avoid sounding redundant.
I believe that the references to the Trumpets in Revelation are meant to draw on all the earlier Trumpet themes of Scripture. Both the Silver and the Rams Horns. Because I view Revelation as explaining the rest of Scripture, and unveiling all what where before mysteries. Meaning if the Trumpet that singles the Rapture isn’t in Revelation, then Revelation has arguably failed to serve part of it’s purpose.
Both Post-Tribbers and Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath supporters love to refute the Pre-Trib argument that Matthew 24 isn’t referring to the same coming/gathering as Paul by pointing out all the parallels between that account and Paul’s from Thessalonians and Corinthians. There are at least 20. But what many either miss or ignore is that a number of those same parallels apply to the Seventh Trumpet in Revelation 11.
We have a Trumpet sounding followed by great voices in Heaven. The use of the word “Archangel” in Corinthians is a different from then when Jude uses it of Michael. It ends with an “n” making it technically plural in Greek.
We have this time not fallible humans but the Four Cherubim declaring God’s Wrath is come.
We have talk about it now being the “Time of the Dead” and time to judge and reward the saints. That sounds like the Bema Seat Judgment to me.
I also think “And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament” correlates to “The sign of the Son of Man” being seen in the Heavens. One can argue the Ark of the New Testament is the Cross on which The Lamb’s Blood was shed for our Sins.
There is lighting and another Earthquake.
I also think you could argue that after the symbolic recap of history in Revelation 12 and 13, that 14 returns to chronologically where we left off.
The 144 Thousand are seen on Mt. Zion, and it sounds to me like their in their Resurrected state, with talk of being “Redeemed from the Earth” and being the “First Fruits”. I do not allegorize the 144 Thousand, their a specific group of believers, I don’t think they represent the Church. But I do think their part of the Church and possibly Resurrected already here. A better argument certainly then the weak one that the Multitude in Chapter 7 are Resurrected already.
And latter we have “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man” in verse 14. And with it Harvest imagery.
And further reading shows the pouring out of God’s Wrath is still only about to happen.
And then supplemental to what follows the 7th Trumpet, is what proceeds it. It seems to immediately follow the Resurrection and Rapture of the Two Witnesses. Again, I do not allegorize the Witnesses, their Enoch and Elijah to me. But I do think it’s possible their Rapture could have a connection to ours. Their being taken out of the Earth alive before are each seen as types of The Rapture after all.
The Parallels are perhaps not as many as a whole 20, but that’s because Revelation is a sort of coded book your supposed to use the rest of the the Bible to unlock, and visa versa. And I think there is more then enough connection between the Seventh Trumpet and the Last Trump to see them as connected.
Revelation 9:20 shows the Image of the Beast hasn’t been set up yet. Because the Idols these people are being judged for worshiping “neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:”. So the life like Image of the beast isn’t here yet.
Actually, Revelation 9 is a major Death nail for the Pre-Wrath position. No damned individual should be able to Ascend out of the Bottomless Pit before that is unlocked. But the Pre-Wrath position needs this to be well after the Abomination of Desolation, which can’t happen until after The beast ascends out of the Bottomless Pit. We’re told he’s ascended out of it already when he kills the Two Witnesses.
The Pre-Wrath position also insist the ministry of the Witness sis the second half, of the 70th week. But Malachi clearly says Elijah returns BEFORE the great and terrible Day of the LORD.
I’ve also decided I see Joel 2:1 as the Sixth Trumpet, what happens after it sounds has some clear parallels to what happens in Revelation 9:13 and up, with a bizarre Supernatural army of Fiery Horsemen. And 2:15 I see as the Seventh Trumpet, and the rest of Chapter 2 and into Chapter 3 as describing it’s outcome, and clear Rapture illusions exist there, the Bridegroom coming for his Bride.
I did a Google search on the subject, and it seems no one else has noticed this yet. Which surprises me. Many I’ve seen, like in J.R. Church’s book on the Minor Prophets, see Joel Chapter 2 correlating to the Fifth Trumpet, though to me that doesn’t work quite as well. I don’t like Allegorizeing the Locust of Revelation 9 into an Army, when the next Judgment is explicitly defined as an Army. To me the creatures let out of the Abyss are Demons taking temporary physical forms, like the ones they sometimes take from TransYughothian Ceremonial Magick rituals. That’s the significance of The Smoke.
But The Invading Army in Joel 2 is usually either taken as the Gog and Magog Invasion, or Armageddon. But to me it seems to be placed before The Rapture, which doesn’t fit the latter. And I’ve become convinced that the former happens after the Millennium.
It seems allot of people identifying as Pre-Wrath think a lot still happens between the Abomination of Desolation and the Rapture, enough to account for months or even years. Basically, to them the Persecution of The Church the Matthew 24 Olivite Discourse describes happening before the Abomination of Desolation, and as correlating to the Fifth Seal, actually happens after the Abomination.
Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 clears places the “Falling Away” before the Abomination of Desolation. The Falling away I view as a compromise doctrine that will happen during this period of persecution. In fact I believe the Antichrist doctrine of the First half of the 70th Week will be deny only that Jesus was the Son of God and God made Flesh. I personally believe he’ll fully view Jesus as real/historical, a Prophet and even Messiah Ben-David.
There are two coming end times Persecutions I believe. Before he midway point The Church is persecuted, and after that The Jews are who he targets. The Pre-Trib view is considered dangerous because it encourages Western Christian to feel secure that they won’t face any persecution. But teaching it won’t begin until after the Abomination of Desolation has almost the same effect. I think this persecution might even begin in some from before we’re even in the 70th Week.
Since I’ve recently reconsidered, that maybe the 70th will be Nisan-Nisan years (as I added to the Jewish Holy Days study) like the first 69 were. I’ve considered that the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet could be on the Feast of Trumpets, making all 3 theories of what the “Last Trump” refers to correct.
Most debates about the rapture are simply framed between Pre-Tirbbers and Post-Tribbers (with the latter sometimes claiming they don’t believe there is a Rapture at all, however absurd that is), with Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath/7th Trumpet type views not being taken too seriously and just written off as compromises. Thing is there are different layers to the Rapture debate, and Mid-Tirbbers rather then being normal compromisers, in my case at least agree with the Post-Tirbbers absolutely in one area but with Pre-Tribbers absolutely in another.
The first part of this thread was about were I agree with the Post-Trib camp, that there are things that must come first. But now I want to address were I agree with the Pre-Tribbers. And that’s the issue of if there are “Tribulation Saints”, people saved after the Rapture who aren’t part of The Church, but are Saved before the Millennium begins.
First I want to refute the favorite argument of certain Post Tirbber’s I’ve seen. That’s a focus on the connection between the Rapture and the Resurrection. The First Resurrection and the Second Resurrection are categories more then a chronological sequence.
The First Resurrection is the Resurrection of the Saved and begins with Yeshua, then Matthew 27:52&53 says “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.” Some want to label this only a temporary resurrection like Lazarus, but that would have been nothing new, this is being cited as a sign that the Redemption has been achieved. Also this is why Yeshua descended into Hell, to take the saved that had been collected in Abraham’s Bosom, Yeshua’s descent into Hell is scripturally supported by Matthew 12:40, Acts 2:27-31, 1 Peter 3:19-20, 4:6, Romans 10:6-8, and Zechariah 9:11.
So we know the First Resurrection isn’t all at once, that is the first phase, then the Rapture, then any Tribulation saints or any others left at the start of the Millennium. Revelation 20:4&5 is only referring to the Resurrection of Tribulation saints specifically Martyred for not taking The Mark. The Second Resurrection happens mostly at the end of the Millennium, but that The Beast and The False Prophet are thrown alive into the Lake of Fire without needing to be killed first suggests to some that they may be early partakers in the Second Resurrection.
Basically, they insist there is no Biblical basis for saying that anyone but Jesus himself is Resurrected prior to Revelation 20. The problem is it makes no sense for that Resurrection be the same one Paul Spoke of. Paul Spoke of the Dead in Christ Rising FIRST, and then us being gather with them all simultaneous with his Coming on the Clouds. In Revelation 20:4 and 5 these individuals aren’t Resurrected until after Jesus has been back for awhile, after Armageddon is already done and the Beast and False Prophet taken care of.
When Jesus returns riding on a White horse he has Resurrected Saints with him, but those clearly, chronologically, can’t be the ones Risen in Chapter 20, who rise latter.
The Two Witnesses also Rise at a different time. in Chapter 11. And in Chapter 14:4 the 144,000 are spoken of as if already Resurrected. “These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”
Recently, I noticed something interesting. Revelation 21 treats New Jerusalem as synonymous with The Bride of Christ. First verse 2 says “I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband”. That could be purely a poetic expression, the big thing comes latter in verse 9 “Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife”. New Jerusalem descends at the start of the New Heaven and New Earth. So the implication of that is that The Bride isn’t on Earth during the Millennium. So that means there is no way you can make those “Tribulation Saints” refereed to as being part of the Millennium a part of The Church.
As I said before, Ecclesiology is a factor. A notable majority of Post-Tribbers hold some form of replacement theology , which Romans 9-11 refutes. The Church and Israel are separate covenants (and Salvation is separate from either of those), not all Saved are apart of either, and some will be part of both. Or even if they don’t strictly believe in replacement theology they still don’t understand the Uniqueness of the Church, including our promise that we will not go trough God’ Wrath. I’ll make an entire thread on Ecclesiology some day.
The thing is Pre-Tribbers have this idea that God can only deal with one at a time. Israel was still the main focus of Acts for several chapters after Pentecost. As I just said some saved people get to be part of both Israel and The Church this starts with the 12 Apostles themselves who are promised that they “shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30.
I think it’s possible the 144,000 are part of that overlap, they like the Two Witnesses shall lay the the ground work for Israel’s national salvation during the First Half of the Tribulation. Their literally of the 12 Tribes and so are definitely Israel biologically/nationally, not just a metaphorical or spiritual Seed of Abraham. The Gentile spiritual Seed of Abraham is mentioned at the end of Revelation 12 where it refers to saints of the second half of the 70th Week.
Revelation 14 speaks of them in terms that can seem like uniquely Church/Bride of Christ imagery. And refers to them as “Redeemed fro the Earth” and as “The first fruits” suggesting their already in their Resurrected state.
So that is why I’ve come to favor the Mid-Tribulation or Pre-Wrath view.
QUOTE Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
QUOTE for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
QUOTEFor the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
QUOTE And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon , that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth
QUOTE Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.”
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
One of the problems in the world today is that Casual Christianity looks at the after life in a way that is inherently Pagan. It’s not a matter of going to Heaven or Hell.
The perfect eternity we’re looking forward to is NOT contemporary Heaven, contemporary Heaven is going to be us giving an account before God of our lives, washing our Robes in the Blood fo the Lamb. What we’re looking forward to is the Resurrection and the Millennium and then the New Heaven and New Earth. The Restoration of the Kosmos to how it was before Adam Sinned.
This is part of why I object to Preterisim and Amillennialism. It’s not just about Eschatology. A denial of the Literal fulfillment of the Millennium allows a Christian to still hold a Pagan view of the After life. And a denial of the literal Resurrection of believers defeats the point of the Resurrection of Christ.
I believe that Salvation can’t be lost, but I believe there are ramifications when a Christian sins, one of those I‘ll discus here. Because all saved during the Church age have the opportunity to Reign with Christ, as Kings and Priests after the Order of Melchizedek. But not all will. We can’t lose our entrance into the Kingdom, but we can lose our Inheritance. There are also rewards for the good works we do, but some will get no rewards.
There are three Greek nouns translated Hell in the KJV rendering of the New Testament. While the Bible often uses different words for the same thing, these 3 names are all distinct entities.
1. Hades, is the equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol (The word for Hell in the Hebrew Bible). Prior to the Cross all of the Dead went there, not just the unsaved. Luke 16 reveals that is has two compartments, the Saved were comforted in Abraham’s Bosom.
2. Tartaros, this word appears only once, in 2 Peter 2:4. The Grammar of this particular verse is also messed up in the KVJ, because the KJV translators wanted to make an assumption about where it was located. SO here is how it should be.
“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them into chains of darkness in Tartaros to be reserved unto judgment”.
Hades and Tartaros both I believe in a sense have geographical locations within the Kosmos. Hades definitely being inside The Earth. But I say in a sense because if we ever were able to physically dig down there, I don’t think we’d see it with our four dimensional perception of reality. I believe they are there but in the other six dimensions, which we know are there but we can’t perceive in our current mortal fallen state.
Tartaros is often assumed to be also inside the Earth, and maybe it is, but I’m not so sure.
Tartaros is beyond any doubt the same place as The Abyss, the Bottomless Pit, their linked by the imagery of Chains and Darkness. In addition to the Genesis 6 Angels, that is also where Demons go when Christian cast them out of possessed people properly, also binding them. Revelation 9 says “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.” Elsewhere in Revelation (1-3 and 12), Stars often symbolize Angels, so it’s often assumed the Star is the Him being given this Key. But this is a completely different part of Revelation, less symbolic and more literal. Every other Star in in the Seal-Trumpet-Veil judgments is always an astronomical object, not specially what we today have limited the meaning of a “Star” to, but still what it literally meant then. Given the context of verse 13, I believe the Angel who sounded the Trumpet is the one being given the Key. The term translated “Fall from” could simply mean descend or move from one location to another. It could simply mean some object in the Solar System, or further out in space, coming much closer to Earth then it currently is.
But that’s a conjecture, it could still be inside the Earth like Hades/Sheol. Jesus is also described as going to the Abyss during the three days he was dead (Romans 10:7, where it’d translated Deep in the KJV). Also Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28-33 have references to a Pit that I go into in my Resurrection of the Antichrist study, there seem like it’s by or in Sheol.
3. Gehena, This word has it’s origin in the name of a fiery Garbage dumb in ancient Judea. But every time Yeshua used it (http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/FRMCONGRK106.htm#S1067), it appears to be a synonym for “The Lake of Fire” not of Hades. This is the finale Damnation, the “Second Death” the ultimate perdition of the unsaved.
The terms “First Resurrection” and “Second Resurrection” are categories more so then a chronological sequence. The First is the saved and the Second the Unsaved.
“The First Resurrection” begins with Yeshua’s own. Remember during the three days and three nights he was “In the Belly of the Earth” he descended into Hades. Why? At least one reason was to get the people being kept in Abraham’s Bosom. Matthew 27:52 “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
So as we can already see it doesn’t necessarily happen all at once. There is also the Resurrection of the Two Witnesses during the 70th Week. The saved who are part of the Church will be Resurrected at the “Rapture” (whether or not you view it as Pre-Trib, Post-Trib or Mid-Trib). And if any saved are left Un-Resurrected after the Beast is defeated, they’ll be Resurrected at the start of The Millennium.
“The Second Resurrection” Revelation 20 puts at the end of the Millennium, after Satan’s final defeat. But since The Beast and The False Prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire without any reference to being killed in Revelation 19, at the start of the Millennium, some have argued that those two are individuals who where allotted to experience the “Second Resurrection” early. Probably his resurrection is the healing of the mortal wound.
There is one area, where Yeshua’s Resurrection is different from ours (The rest of “The First Resurrection“) that I want to discus quickly. Some critics of The Bible I’ve encountered have suggested that Yeshua’s sacrifice on the Cross doesn’t mean anything since he knew he’d be Resurrected. But The Logos didn’t just become a Man temporarily, he became one permanently.
Revelation 5:5&6 “And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain.” It’s well known that Yeshua still had his wounds from the Crucifixion when he was walking on the Earth following The Resurrection via the Doubting Thomas story. And Zechariah 12 and Revelation 1 both tell us he’ll still be Pierced when he returns to be reunited with the Redeemed of Israel in Petra. But here we see it implied he’s Pierced right now at his Father’s right hand, even though he’s not in the physical realm.
None of the other Saved I believe will still have the wounds that caused their Death when their Resurrected, I can’t picture Rachel Scott walking around in the New Jerusalem with multiple gunshot wounds to her head, chest, arm and leg. That’s the permanent part of Yeshua’s sacrifice for us, he’s going to carry His wounds forever so we won’t have to carry ours.